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	<title>Comments on: Everything but &#8220;open&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/</link>
	<description>Open Source, The Web, And German-American Oddities</description>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/comment-page-1/#comment-263197</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 12:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fredericiana.com/?p=2780#comment-263197</guid>
		<description>voracity: Thank you for your comment! You are very right, outright deleting the article was perhaps not the greatest idea, especially considering the discussion that came out of it. Apologies for that radical step :)

Instead of a complete followup post, I therefore decided to bring back the original text basically unchanged, and added a separate update section that addresses the individual point of views brought up here.

Thanks to everyone for chiming in!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>voracity: Thank you for your comment! You are very right, outright deleting the article was perhaps not the greatest idea, especially considering the discussion that came out of it. Apologies for that radical step <img src='http://fredericiana.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Instead of a complete followup post, I therefore decided to bring back the original text basically unchanged, and added a separate update section that addresses the individual point of views brought up here.</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone for chiming in!</p>
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		<title>By: voracity</title>
		<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/comment-page-1/#comment-263191</link>
		<dc:creator>voracity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fredericiana.com/?p=2780#comment-263191</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t it a bit inappropriate to delete a post about openness? It doesn&#039;t matter if your post was right or wrong, so long as you&#039;re receptive to feedback and update it accordingly, that in itself would be a great example of (one form of) openness.

Anyway, I look forward to your follow up post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it a bit inappropriate to delete a post about openness? It doesn&#8217;t matter if your post was right or wrong, so long as you&#8217;re receptive to feedback and update it accordingly, that in itself would be a great example of (one form of) openness.</p>
<p>Anyway, I look forward to your follow up post.</p>
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		<title>By: Everything but “open” &#124; fredericiana : : standardy</title>
		<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/comment-page-1/#comment-263173</link>
		<dc:creator>Everything but “open” &#124; fredericiana : : standardy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 03:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fredericiana.com/?p=2780#comment-263173</guid>
		<description>[...] Zobacz resztę artykułu: Everything but “open” &#124; fredericiana [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Zobacz resztę artykułu: Everything but “open” | fredericiana [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/comment-page-1/#comment-263162</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 21:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fredericiana.com/?p=2780#comment-263162</guid>
		<description>Thanks to all commenters so far (keep the comments coming, if you like :) ). I think I will tomorrow (my time) blog once again and outline in more detail what the debate is here. In fact, I find the discussion I have spawned so much more interesting than Steve Jobs&#039; voluntary or involuntary confusion of terms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to all commenters so far (keep the comments coming, if you like <img src='http://fredericiana.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  ). I think I will tomorrow (my time) blog once again and outline in more detail what the debate is here. In fact, I find the discussion I have spawned so much more interesting than Steve Jobs&#8217; voluntary or involuntary confusion of terms.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/comment-page-1/#comment-263160</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 21:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fredericiana.com/?p=2780#comment-263160</guid>
		<description>You (and a commenter) link to Wikipedia and claim that there is still some debate over the term.

Wikipedia has 14 definitions. 12 say &quot;no patent fees&quot;, 1 is a historical accident, much like someone saying that they had &quot;Open Source&quot; or &quot;Free Software&quot; years before those gained defined meanings.

That leaves one definition, created by the patent lawyers of the telecoms standards group that developed H.264 (somewhat of a coincidence no?). If you read the statement that is quoted in full you find they are actually reacting against the attempts by various governments and standards organizations to establish &quot;Open Standards&quot;.


Note that in Steve Jobs&#039; Thoughts on Flash he refers to HTML, CSS and Javascript as &quot;Open Standards&quot; repeatedly, but calls H.264 an &quot;industry standard&quot; instead. He knows there is a difference and doesn&#039;t generally mess it up.

He will do clever and misleading things e.g. saying that FaceTime could be an open standard is true just like saying HTML5 video tag is an open standard. This doesn&#039;t mean they can&#039;t both use proprietary video codecs (or image files etc.) and therefore make the combination non-open.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You (and a commenter) link to Wikipedia and claim that there is still some debate over the term.</p>
<p>Wikipedia has 14 definitions. 12 say &#8220;no patent fees&#8221;, 1 is a historical accident, much like someone saying that they had &#8220;Open Source&#8221; or &#8220;Free Software&#8221; years before those gained defined meanings.</p>
<p>That leaves one definition, created by the patent lawyers of the telecoms standards group that developed H.264 (somewhat of a coincidence no?). If you read the statement that is quoted in full you find they are actually reacting against the attempts by various governments and standards organizations to establish &#8220;Open Standards&#8221;.</p>
<p>Note that in Steve Jobs&#8217; Thoughts on Flash he refers to HTML, CSS and Javascript as &#8220;Open Standards&#8221; repeatedly, but calls H.264 an &#8220;industry standard&#8221; instead. He knows there is a difference and doesn&#8217;t generally mess it up.</p>
<p>He will do clever and misleading things e.g. saying that FaceTime could be an open standard is true just like saying HTML5 video tag is an open standard. This doesn&#8217;t mean they can&#8217;t both use proprietary video codecs (or image files etc.) and therefore make the combination non-open.</p>
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		<title>By: Jo Hermans</title>
		<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/comment-page-1/#comment-263155</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo Hermans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 20:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fredericiana.com/?p=2780#comment-263155</guid>
		<description>I know that you have removed the original content, but I would like to argue why this is really an open software architecture, but I&#039;m not focusing on H.264 only.

I have been programming voip software for lots of years, and I can guarantee you that these is an OPEN software architecture. As usual, people are confusing OPEN with FREE (as in beer). The architecture as outlined here, is nothing special, and is basically similar what most voip systems (the one that are used by telecommunication companies, not Skype) use these days. The whole point is that you can easily (*) build a voip system (a desktop app or a mobile phone or whatever)  that can interoperate with this. It&#039;s standards compliant. And that&#039;s the whole point - you are NOT forced to use a mobile phone from 1 manufacturer, you can choose your own (aside from restrictions that your mobile provider might impose, but that&#039;s something else).

Note that the use of a separate connection (over the internet) to let video stream bypass the normal phone company network, isn&#039;t particularly new. But Apple might have problems at first, since many phone companies might not like it (I have programmed servers before that explicitly blocked this). Maybe if they hide it in a propriety SIP header instead of in the RTP body ? And the QoS might be a bit difficult to guarantee if it needs to be passed through more than 1 ISP. We&#039;&#039;ll see.

The only thing a bit surprising is the limited number of codecs built-in (H.264, MPEG-4, M-JPEG). It seems that Steve seems to force other manufacturers to use H.264 as a common choice - not a bad choice from a quality point of view (H.264 has a pretty good compression profile for this type of video). The point that are are other codecs -free or not- free is moot, if there are no voip clients that currently implement them. Google might be a big influence - they&#039;re capable of pushing VP8 in their android phones. But even they might be forced to support H.264 too, to be able to inter-operate. H.264 is also found in many IMS voip systems, which is the new standard for phone companies, so I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if they will. And maybe force Apple to support VP8 too (I hope), and the other common codecs (H.261, H.262, H.263, ...).

Note that the use of codecs for video calls has nothing to do with their use in HTML5. But smartphones will obviously share their codecs between their browsers and their phone software.

(*) Yes, I have implemented (parts) of such a system. Really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know that you have removed the original content, but I would like to argue why this is really an open software architecture, but I&#8217;m not focusing on H.264 only.</p>
<p>I have been programming voip software for lots of years, and I can guarantee you that these is an OPEN software architecture. As usual, people are confusing OPEN with FREE (as in beer). The architecture as outlined here, is nothing special, and is basically similar what most voip systems (the one that are used by telecommunication companies, not Skype) use these days. The whole point is that you can easily (*) build a voip system (a desktop app or a mobile phone or whatever)  that can interoperate with this. It&#8217;s standards compliant. And that&#8217;s the whole point &#8211; you are NOT forced to use a mobile phone from 1 manufacturer, you can choose your own (aside from restrictions that your mobile provider might impose, but that&#8217;s something else).</p>
<p>Note that the use of a separate connection (over the internet) to let video stream bypass the normal phone company network, isn&#8217;t particularly new. But Apple might have problems at first, since many phone companies might not like it (I have programmed servers before that explicitly blocked this). Maybe if they hide it in a propriety SIP header instead of in the RTP body ? And the QoS might be a bit difficult to guarantee if it needs to be passed through more than 1 ISP. We&#8221;ll see.</p>
<p>The only thing a bit surprising is the limited number of codecs built-in (H.264, MPEG-4, M-JPEG). It seems that Steve seems to force other manufacturers to use H.264 as a common choice &#8211; not a bad choice from a quality point of view (H.264 has a pretty good compression profile for this type of video). The point that are are other codecs -free or not- free is moot, if there are no voip clients that currently implement them. Google might be a big influence &#8211; they&#8217;re capable of pushing VP8 in their android phones. But even they might be forced to support H.264 too, to be able to inter-operate. H.264 is also found in many IMS voip systems, which is the new standard for phone companies, so I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if they will. And maybe force Apple to support VP8 too (I hope), and the other common codecs (H.261, H.262, H.263, &#8230;).</p>
<p>Note that the use of codecs for video calls has nothing to do with their use in HTML5. But smartphones will obviously share their codecs between their browsers and their phone software.</p>
<p>(*) Yes, I have implemented (parts) of such a system. Really.</p>
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		<title>By: Tiago Sá</title>
		<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/comment-page-1/#comment-263153</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiago Sá</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 19:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fredericiana.com/?p=2780#comment-263153</guid>
		<description>H264 will never be a standard for the web and that&#039;s that. Anyone that thinks or claims otherwise is either a delusional fool or has a share of the codec...

It&#039;s really that simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>H264 will never be a standard for the web and that&#8217;s that. Anyone that thinks or claims otherwise is either a delusional fool or has a share of the codec&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s really that simple.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Krenesky</title>
		<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/comment-page-1/#comment-263152</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Krenesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 19:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fredericiana.com/?p=2780#comment-263152</guid>
		<description>Technically it is &quot;open&quot; but it was a disingenuous statement when faced with google providing a truly open format (webM).  An open standard that uses software with financially prohibitive licensing defeats the purpose of it being an open standard.  It doesn&#039;t matter if its open if people can&#039;t, or won&#039;t use it.

To be fair, no handheld device will ever be capable of encode/decode without a hardware encoder/decoder.  Regardless of motivations for or against webM, apple didn&#039;t have the time to build webm support into their chips while they already included h.264 for video recording and playback.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Technically it is &#8220;open&#8221; but it was a disingenuous statement when faced with google providing a truly open format (webM).  An open standard that uses software with financially prohibitive licensing defeats the purpose of it being an open standard.  It doesn&#8217;t matter if its open if people can&#8217;t, or won&#8217;t use it.</p>
<p>To be fair, no handheld device will ever be capable of encode/decode without a hardware encoder/decoder.  Regardless of motivations for or against webM, apple didn&#8217;t have the time to build webm support into their chips while they already included h.264 for video recording and playback.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/comment-page-1/#comment-263150</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 18:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fredericiana.com/?p=2780#comment-263150</guid>
		<description>&quot;Of course, I wish circumstances were different, but I think it’s clear that “open” is still a very muddy term.&quot;

Yes, definitely a muddy pit I stepped straight into, sigh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Of course, I wish circumstances were different, but I think it’s clear that “open” is still a very muddy term.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, definitely a muddy pit I stepped straight into, sigh.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandy</title>
		<link>http://fredericiana.com/2010/06/08/everything-but-open/comment-page-1/#comment-263149</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 18:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fredericiana.com/?p=2780#comment-263149</guid>
		<description>&quot;A standard that you can buy a license for for a bucket of money is not “open”.&quot;

Well, you&#039;re certainly entitled to your opinion about what &quot;open&quot; means.  But it might be informative for you to read about RAND licensing and varying definitions of terms like &quot;open standard&quot; and &quot;open specification&quot;.  In many contexts, it is considered fair to charge a bucket of money for a patent license on an &quot;open&quot; spec/standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_standard#Patents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_specifications

Of course, I wish circumstances were different, but I think it&#039;s clear that &quot;open&quot; is still a very muddy term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A standard that you can buy a license for for a bucket of money is not “open”.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, you&#8217;re certainly entitled to your opinion about what &#8220;open&#8221; means.  But it might be informative for you to read about RAND licensing and varying definitions of terms like &#8220;open standard&#8221; and &#8220;open specification&#8221;.  In many contexts, it is considered fair to charge a bucket of money for a patent license on an &#8220;open&#8221; spec/standard.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_standard#Patents" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_standard#Patents</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_specifications" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_specifications</a></p>
<p>Of course, I wish circumstances were different, but I think it&#8217;s clear that &#8220;open&#8221; is still a very muddy term.</p>
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